Saturday, 24 May 2008

Some Exciting News About the Kieffe & Sons Ford Ad

Well, a reader of this blog has generously sent me an audio clip of the obnoxious radio ad by Kieffe & Sons in Mojave, CA. The ad was run on 93.5, The Quake. Karen Peralta graciously sent me a copy of the advertisement. Thank you, Karen. WooHoo. The first couple of lines are missing from the recording, but we both have a pretty similar memory of what he said.

Get the audio for the ad.

Here is a transcript of the ad, with the missing part in blocks. Karen has more recently heard the ad, so I'm putting in what she remembers.
["Did you know that there are people in this country who want prayer out of schools, "Under God" out of the Pledge, and "In God We Trust" to be taken off our money?"]

"But did you know that 86% of Americans say they believe in God? Since we all know that 86 out of every 100 of us are Christians, who believe in God, we at Kieffe & Sons Ford wonder why we don't tell the other 14% to sit down and shut up. I guess I just offended 14% of the people who are listening to this message. Well, if that is the case then I say that's tough, this is America folks, it's called free speech. None of us at Kieffe & Sons Ford is afraid to speak out. Kieffe & Sons Ford on Sierra Highway in Mojave and Rosamond, if we don't see you today, by the grace of God, we'll be here tomorrow."
Well, Mr Kieffe, you won't be seeing me either today or tomorrow. And you certainly won't be seeing my money. What an asshole. It seems that he is for free speech for himself and his majority, but the rest of us 14% are second class citizens who need to "sit down and shut up." Also, his percentages are wrong. According to the Pew Poll, 10.6% say they don't believe in God, and 73% identify as Christian.

What about a new version of the ad? After all "it's called free speech."
"Did you know that there are people in this country who are assholes that want to shove their religion in everyone's faces? But did you know that 14% of Americans say they don't believe in God? Since we all know that 14 out of every 100 of us are not Christians, who don't believe in God, we at Kieffe & Sons Ford wonder why we don't tell the other 86% to sit down and shut up. I guess I just offended 86% of the people who are listening to this message. Well, if that is the case then I say that's tough, this is America folks, it's called free speech. None of us at Kieffe & Sons Ford is afraid to speak out. Kieffe & Sons Ford on Sierra Highway in Mojave and Rosamond, if we don't see you today, we'll be here tomorrow."
Now if an ad aired like this there would be massive protests of Christians everywhere. What if the ad targeted Jews or African Americans? Would any radio station air the ad?

Oh, and some advice for Mr. Kieffe & his sons:

[Note - Karen's name and her audio is used with her permission.]

Previous Posts on this subject:
Jerk on the Radio
Obnoxious Ford Ad, Part 2
Obnoxious Ford Ad, Part 3
Here I Come, Tinseltown: I've Been Interviewed for DFA
Lets See if I can Get the Ad
Letter To The Ford Dealership
Feel The Burn

My interview on Dogma Free America with the recording of the ad.


Gene Goldring said...

The dealership has a contact page.

wuweiproductions said...

As an atheist, I wish more businesses would be this forthright with their agendas, because when I'm getting ready to make a purchase, knowing I can cross a place like this off my list of possibilities just reduces the amount of time I have to spend researching the best dealer. That's the great thing about a free-speech open-commerce system. They can say what they want, and I can choose to take my (now nearly worthless) dollar somewhere else.

Anonymous said...

So has anyone made Ford Motor Co. aware of this ad. They have strict guidelines for dealer advertising and are looking to thin their dealership network at this time. This would make a great excuse for them to pull his franchise!


Anonymous said...

I like that he says 86% believe in god, and then just automatically thinks that makes them Christian.

Anonymous said...

You misspelled the name of the dealership. It is "Kieffe" and not "Keiffe".

Grant R. said...

Most atheists are smart enough to not own a Ford anyhow. Oh did he go there?

Chris Berry said...

Since Ford sales only represent about 14% of the domestic market, maybe they have their numbers backwards.

Anonymous said...

I live in Canada where we are not quite so God struck, but we still have our issues. I support anyone's right to opt out, and I believe that freedom of religion includes freedom FROM religion - I'm not going to put up with anyone telling me that I'm going to Hell because I don't read the same holy book that they do. Oh well time to take a stress pill and get on with life!

Anna Lemma said...

Oops, I guess I'll have to fix the typos. Yes, I contacted Ford directly , as well as the dealership. No response from the dealer, and a brush off from Ford.

Anonymous said...

Wow, these guys ARE assholes, and I'm a Christian. I don't really see what believing in God has to do with selling Fords, or what their marketing strategy is, but I doubt it will work except with a few jingoistic bigots.

vertigo25 said...

I love how theses asswipes not only assume that if you believe in God, you're automatically a Christian; but that if you're a Christian, you're not offended by bigotry towards others.

BoingBoing has picked this up. Hopefully, the internet's teaming masses will make an impact.

I think it's time to pressure these tools in to removing the ad, but in to making a public apology.

Anonymous said...

The beauty of free speech is that you don't have to even listen to what someone is freely speaking about, which includes your opinion of Christianity. Snarking about any religion, or lack thereof is 'throwing it in your face' too. The dealership in question didn't need to go there, but again, you didn't either.

Simon Owens said...

Ok, this is what you have to do. Gather around five atheists in that area. Over the course of the week have each of them go in and show interest in buying some of the most expensive cars in the lot. Then, after they've wasted a good 30 minutes to an hour talking to you, bargaining with you, and getting ready for you to sign the contract and give them those great commissions, have sudden epiphanies that this was the dealership that had those offense ads. Then have them walk out without buying the cars.

This way, not only does this get them thinking they've lost out on thousands of dollars in sales, but it also wastes their valuable time they've spent tending to you.

Anonymous said...

I love it, it shows up perfectly what is wrong with religion. I have never heard an atheist use language like that against someone else because of someone's beliefs, and if they did they'd be shouted down because they wouldn't be representative of anyone.
I'm glad there a few christians who don't agree with this, but really, come on - there should be a huge outcry about this by Christians. It shouldn't be up to atheists to pass this stuff around. The fact that they shake their heads and then go about their business, without sticking up for anyones rights but their own, is exactly the reason atheists must look elsewhere for good morals and ethics. It's clear this religion has less and less every day.

HumanistDad said...

Why be offended or try to get the ad pulled? He has the right to be an idiot.

If I lived near there I'd be happy to join a protest near his place of business.

Anonymous said...

I suggest we barrage their dealership with quote requests pretending to buy their cars - lead them on - then, when we are ready to buy (and their salesmen are salivating over the commission) tell them we just heard about their ad and are against religious bigotry, and are pulling our business. Perhaps that missing carrot is enough to stop them from dangling that crap to the public.

Karen Peralta said...

Ohh. I'm so happy that this is becoming known. :D With this blog and the podcast and now Boing Boing making reporting on this, it is reaching quite a few people.
I was dreading that Kieffe and Sons would be able to get away with this without any repercussions.

Anonymous said...

I just a sent an e-mail to Ford's Corporate people along with a link to this site. Hopefully, they'll act.

Cujo359 said...

Pharyngula picked this issue up today. So, it's being noticed. Thanks for taking this stand, Anna Lemma. Hopefully, bigots like these will at least think twice before spouting off in the future.

Karen Peralta said...

Yes! You keep thanking me for the recording but I must say thank you thank you thank you for taking a stand against this asshole and making it known.
It's all thanks to you that this is getting so much coverage. :D You're my hero. hah.

Anna Lemma said...

I emailed PZ Myers over at Pharyngula this morning. We both used frequent the IIDB forums. I knew that he would probably find this interesting once Karen emailed the recording of the ad to me. Thanks Karen.

I don't slam the run of the mill Christians on this blog. I comment on those who claim they are "morally superior" because they believe in God or are Christian demonstrate they are just fallible as me. They are not better than me, we are all just human. I'm not some sort of second class person because I'm not religious.

Personally, I think most kinds of organized religion or political ideology are evil because people allow the "organization" to do their thinking for them. That is why I usually only join professional organizations or organization that promote critical thinking.

Anna Lemma said...

Oops, ignore the bad grammar in the previous post.

Anna Lemma said...

I don't say that Kieffe & Sons can't air the ad. They can say anything they want to. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of saying that they can say what they want to, but the rest of us need to "sit down and shut up". I even emailed them and posted what I sent to them on this blog and make the same point. Their ad is an example of the Christian Nationalism which is running rampant in my local area. These people believe they are "God's chosen" and they are really the only ones who deserve to have full citizenship in this country.

MrKAT, Finland,EU said...

You could tell Ford Motor Co. that this staggering ad is now heard on other side of globe, here in Finland, too.

Cuttlefish said...

Just for you:

Anonymous said...

why are those who claim to be christian or christlike cursing like the devil himself? If your brand of christianity doesnt change me for the better, I dont want it. As for the For dealership any intelligent person can see thru that foolishnes.

Anonymous said...

Karen Peralta has no right to claim ownership of this audio. It is someone else's creation.

Karen Peralta said...

I'm not claiming ownership of it. haha. I just recorded it.
Where'd you get that idea?

Anonymous said...

Still a hell of a "leap of faith" on the stats: Even if 86% ARE actually Christian, that doesn't mean that some percentage of Christians aren't offended by an ad that tells folks of other faiths to shut up. In which case the percentage of people offended by the ad would surely be more than 14%. Bi*ches.

Anonymous said...

So you're all for free speech except his.

Pay for your own ads...

Anonymous said...

I too am an atheist and a liberal. I was trying to point out to some conservatives why groups like the ACLU work so hard for people like this. Even though I think the dealership is typical of the current religious push, and I'm slightly offended by it, I would work extremely hard to defend their right to exist and continue spouting their religious garbage.

On the same hand, we liberal atheists have a "whatever" attitude and, while the dealer has the right to be a jerk, it's good that people are bringing it up and fighting against it.

But fight the ideas. Don't fight whether or not the dealer should or shouldn't do the ads, etc.

Anonymous said...

The only reason why people give a damn about this ad is because 1) it's hilariously hypocritical, and 2) it's rude. Nobody deserves to be told to "sit down and shut up", as if they're second-class citizens. If this ad was the other way around, an atheist telling Christians to shut up, I'd be just as offended. And I'm an atheist.

I'm sure the majority of atheists wouldn't care if the ad was just religious. But the fact that Kieffe goes out of his way to insult all non-Christians.. That's what we care about.

Anonymous said...

"So you're all for free speech except his."

No, you are being as ignorant as he is. We aren't saying he shouldn't have to right to say it, but rather we are bashing the heck out of what he is saying, which is the whole point of free speech.

Plus, he's representing Ford Motor Company, which adds a whole new level.

jonathan said...

when you say some figure is wrong, and then cite a poll, how does that make you right? hint: you're both "wrong," only, one might be citing a poll with lesser uncertainty, and the other might be remembering a poll from years ago.

so fuck you for abusing science.

science is not an excuse to prop your non-god-philosophy up above someone else's god-philosophy. it's science, not philosophy.

i'm an atheist, and neither darwinist nor creationist, and i thought it was a hilarious ad.

so fuck you for insulting atheism.

i don't buy from people who are afraid to laugh at themselves. i don't read their ignorant blogs, either. will be filtering this one from my rss feeds.

Kevin M. Folta Ph.D. said...

It is critical to NOT attack their right and willingness to air such stupidity. If anything, they should be encouraged via their contact page!

Anytime that someone wants to tatoo "BIGOT" across their forehead it is a good thing. At least we can make informed decisions about how to deal/not deal with them going forward.

How many non-believers bought cars there in the past? Probably many. Now they know better.

Offensive speech is the best form of free speech- from that we can make better decisions.

vkacademy said...

I have to agree with wuweiproductions: I prefer to know what sort of bigots I'm dealing with ahead of time. Imagine how crappy you'd feel if you'd been buying cars from these guys and THEN heard the ad.

Cujo359 said...

No one is attacking their right to air an ad. Part of being free is having the freedom to make an ass of oneself. What I'm attacking is the attitude that this sort of thinking is OK. It's not. Religious bigotry needs to be put in the same category as any other - as something unacceptable to a modern, enlightened society. There are plenty of Christians in this country who would disagree with that statement, and taken collectively they're a scary group of people.

So please, stop beating this strawman.

Anonymous said...

Yep, nothin' like using our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to sell crummy cars. The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

kiksweetie said...

I applaude Kieffe & Sons Ford. Finally someone that stands up and says WE are done sitting down and shutting up ourselves. I agree we all have the freedom of speech and the right to believe or not... so why is it ok that those of you who choose not to believe have the right to take away our rights. Why do you have the right to demolish this country's history and christian foundation? Nobody forces you to join in our prayers or to site the pledge of allegience. We have our rights too. Way to go Kieffe & Sons!!! Thank you for voicing your belief and fighting for our rights that too many of our heros have fought and died to give to us.

Anonymous said...

kiksweetie, you're an idiot. If you knew a little history you'd be aware that the Christian foundation you believe this country is based on is a figment of your imagination. Under God was added to the pledge as a respond to communism. In God we trust was not always on legal tender, and some of the founding fathers were not such strong believers. If anything the country was setup with the desire to protect the people *against* religious persecution. Get a clue.

Jacques said...

The ford contact form is here.

The word on the importance of diversity of thought, religion, etc from the CEO of Ford is here

You know what to do. Go to it internet army!

Anonymous said...

First off it your going to play the ad you might want to play the whole thing, not just a portion of it. It is being taken way out of context. The people that are calling are out of there minds, telling off the first person that answers the phone, like that does anything, we are not the ones who place the ads or have anything to do with it. I will say that I agree with it though atleast in the context that it was ment, and everyone that is making a big deal with it really needs to get a life!

Anonymous said...

There is no where in the ad that says we are representing Ford Motor Company, by the way I am not representing Kieffe and Sons Ford I just work there and am proud of it!

Liz said...

ruh roh, we have kieffe employees in the hizzy!

for what it's worth, it may seem to some people like it's being blown out of proportion, but if you had said the same thing about jewish people or black one would say "hey, you're blowing this out of proportion."

i don't think anyone is going to riot because of this, but honestly, that was some hateful stuff that was said, and we have as much right to discuss it here as they had to say it on the radio.


Karen Peralta said...

I don't understand how it could've been taken out of context. The fact that he believes atheists should sit down and shut up because they don't agree with his beliefs is pretty clear.

Anonymous said...

To kiksweetie:

You said: "Why do you have the right to demolish this country's history and christian foundation?"

You might want to actually read up on this country's history. Religion was involved, but clearly not in the way seem to be thinking it is.

Remember that whole Church of England, running from state-established religion stuff? That might be why some people react so negatively when you try to use the government to shove *your* God and *your* Jesus down our throats. Ironically, those of us fighting this religious zealotry are the ones keeping you free to worship however you please (no matter how silly it is).

Worship on your own time, with your own money.

Oh, and, btw, most of our founders were actually Deists, not Christian. You guys have just repeated that "Christian foundation" lie so many times that you're actually starting to believe it.

Marie - Kieffe & Sons Employee and proud of it! said...

Like I said maybe you should listen to the whole ad. Get your story straight. It ment basicaly the majority should rule. Not that you don't have a right to feel the way you do, but don't force it on the rest of us! And because it was blown out of control, maybe you should listen to the people that are calling in! They are quite rude and nasty, don't even want to speak the the person in charge just want to yell at the first person they come to. That's ignorance.

Liz said...

quite right, one should be nasty to you without knowing your take on it. in fact, no one should be nasty at all. i'm sorry if you're one of the people who is unduly taking the brunt of whatever rudeness is being directed your way.

on another note, you said:

Not that you don't have a right to feel the way you do, but don't force it on the rest of us!

quite true! that also applies to ads on the radio telling me (and my fellow non-christians) to "sit down and shut up". :)

Karen Peralta said...

I did listen to the whole ad, Marie. Four times. I am the one who recorded it, in fact.
My story is completely straight, don't worry.

We're not forcing anything on you. And just what kind of America would it be if we let majority rule? Women and blacks would still be seen as second-class citizens. That wouldn't be very beneficial to you, now would it, Marie?

That's not ignorance. Maybe you should look up the definition.
It's actually anger and standing up for our rights.

deborahenger said...

I already left one commit. Not posting it? hummm, interesting.

deborahenger said...

Hooray for Kieffe and Sons Ford! It's about time the majority spoke up. I for one will drive way OUT of my way to buy my next car from you. We are not going to take it anymore. Everyone can beat up on the Christian, but when we speak out, here comes the American Communist Lawyers Union. By the way, it's a well known fact that the average human uses approximately 10% of their brain. Do you think it's possible for GOD to exist in the 90% you don't use?

Marie said...

I hate to tell you but the places I have checked on the internet only play a portion of it. I may not be black, but I am a woman, and I would have to say that the majority of Men that I know would back me up and same with the blacks that I know, so we would of evolved, I am not telling anyone to shut up, by the way I am just sayng that it was taken another way than it was ment, and you can't argue with me on that because you don't know! Normally when I hear an ad I don't agree with I just ignore it, but it appears you can't and want to stir things up. I will tell you that we do get Complements on the ad, it's not all negitive. This is my last post on this blog because I have better things to do with my life, but any of your readers, should know not just to call and yell because they can, (I am not the only one who answers the phone, we all do!) I won't take it! Atleast ask for the person who is responsible for the ad, he is more than willing to talk to you, I on the other hand am not!

Anonymous said...

@marie, who apparently hasn't the slightest clue as to how representative democracies work-

you need to read why what you said about majority rule is so wrong:

Like other tyrannies, the tyranny of the majority was at first, and is still vulgarly, held in dread, chiefly as operating through the acts of the public authorities. But reflecting persons perceived that when society is itself the tyrant — society collectively over the separate individuals who compose it — its means of tyrannizing are not restricted to the acts which it may do by the hands of its political functionaries. Society can and does execute its own mandates; and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practices a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself.

Karen Peralta said...

I do know for a fact that God doesn't exist in 90% of my brain because that 10% deal is a myth. It's possible that we only use 10% at one given time, but our whole brain is completely used. :) Well, maybe not your whole brain.
Sorry, but your "well known fact" is a lie.

Liz said...


wait...what? no one is calling down the ACLU. this is about a CHRISTIAN who is bashing on NON-CHRISTIANS. that's what we're talking about here. i'm an atheist and i go about my own business every single day and never bash on any christians. belief (or lack of belief) in god is very personal, so please don't come out here and bash our beliefs...we're not bashing yours, we're simply sticking up for ourselves and discussing the implications of a fairly hateful radio ad.

he had a right to air the ad, so we have the right to discuss it here. end of story.

Anonymous said...

the American Communist Lawyers Union

you mean the same ACLU that can regularly be found protecting your rights as a xian?

that ACLU?

why is that you morons seem to LOVE to shoot yourselves in the foot?

Karen Peralta said...

The only part missing from the recording all over the internet is the first sentence. And I know what it said and it was as offensive as the rest of the ad.
Unless there is some obscure whole ad that was played on the radio maybe once and the shorter version has been played many more times.

"you can't argue with me on that because you don't know!"

And I do imagine that you get compliments. We are the nation that hired Bush so it doesn't surprise me.

Anonymous said...

And I do imagine that you get compliments.

but it's hardly an argument in their favor.

I wonder if they even know what an argumentum ad populum means?

Is it too late to reduce personal ignorance for these people?

Karen Peralta said...

I believe it is too late for them but you have reduced my ignorance so your attempt was not in vain.
I did not know about argumentum ad populum but it applies beautifully here.

Anonymous said...

I think you'll find that ALL armchair xian "philosophers" rely on it quite consistently.

...and often combine it with a whole lot of projection.

Cujo359 said...

Marie, you seem to have no regard for our intelligence, but in reality most of us can work out the meaning of a phrase like "we at Kieffe & Sons Ford wonder why we don't tell the other [25 percent, really] to sit down and shut up" without resorting to a dictionary. Your employer stated that a quarter of this country is unworthy of participating in discussions that affect us. If that's not what he meant, then he ought to issue a clarification.

I'm sorry that you're one of the folks who have to deal with the angry callers. Maybe you should offer to connect the next ones who call with the person responsible for the ad.

Anna Lemma said...

Wow, Marie what a load of ignorance. You really need a good lesson in civics and American history. The founders, most of whom were Christians,as well as some deists, knew full well the horrors that could be inflicted by a state religion, held by the majority.

You guys can say what you want in the ad, I have no problems with your free speech rights, so why do you have a problem with my free speech rights? It seems like a double standard is operating here. You guys, safely in the majority can attack at will,but the isolated minority has no recourse to free speech and cannot defend themselves?

Anyway, it seems like awfully weak faith if it needs to be propped up by slamming and tearing down others. I guess the power of doubt really gets under your skins.

And didn't the early Christians fight attempts by the Romans to force them to adopt the civil religion of Rome? And now once you guys are in power, you are the ones that want to impose a civil religion on the rest of us. You know, I thought the founder of your religion had some strong words to say about hypocrites.

Anna Lemma said...

For those who think that we are lying about the ad, it has been heard by a lot of people. I heard the ad a couple of times, on two differing radio stations. The first part of the ad is very close to what I heard. And I clearly state in the post that this is what people recall, even if it maybe paraphrased somewhat.The meaning is still clear for the first sentence in the ad. Kieffe & Sons is specifically identifying people who don't believe in God and may have lawsuits to remove "In God We Trust" and "under God". Hmmm, I wonder who that could be? Atheists and agnostics perhaps?

Anna Lemma said...

Wow, kiksweetie, I guess my service to this country is worth nothing to you, as I don't believe in your god. I suppose next, you'll be saying that I'm worth nothing as a person, and am in the way of your perfect, Christian nation. And history has shown us what happens next.

We'll I swore an oath to protect and defend the constitution against all enemies, especially the domestic ones.

Anonymous said...


Horne (the guy who wrote the ad), put up his own blog to defend it:

In defending it, he tells us:

The difference between them and you is this. Believers do not have to justify their existence.

so, not only are atheists unfit to buy ford cars, we are unfit to exist, and must continuously act to justify our own existence.

seriously, people that think that others must justify their existence are one step away from deciding that those that must justify their existence should have their existence denied them anyway.

Expelled (that horrid attempt by Stein to be "culturally relevant" by equating science with naziism) tried to tie Darwinism to genocide, but it's quite obvious that the mentality of denying others their very right to exist lies with xianity.

more projection on their part.

Anna Lemma said...

deborahenger,I don't have any moderation at all set on this blog. People can post anything at all. But if they post threats on my life, then I'll deal with it, and they won't be happy.

People can post anonymously if they want to, but Google still records the originating IP addresses. You must have made an error, or else Google did. Also, I track all IP addresses accessing this blog. I don't usually look at them, but its reassuring.

Both you and Marie really need to take civics lessons.In fact,I think that all citizens of this country should be required to participate in either civil or military service. Then perhaps they can start to understand how our government works.

Our government is a representative democracy, not a pure democracy. The ancient Greeks had a pure democracy, but our founders preferred a Roman style of representative government.

We elect our representatives to vote and make laws for us. If they don't do the will of the people then they are usually voted out of office. In addition, we have certain basic rights that each citizen possesses. These rights are guaranteed by the Constitution.

Your rights stop where mine start and vice versa. By your logic, if the majority of brown haired citizens voted to execute the red-haired citizens, then that would become the law. If you can't see the flaw in a pure democracy, then I don't know what else I can say.

Anna Lemma said...

Oh and to continue the post.There are three branches of the government: legislative, judicial, and executive.They are separated and have differing powers to ensure that power is shared, that power is not concentrated in in the hands of only
one branch.

Anna Lemma said...

Thanks anon. I plan to visit his web site and will post something on it tomorrow.

Anonymous said...

Thanks anon. I plan to visit his web site and will post something on it tomorrow.

It's me, Ichthyic; I'm just too lazy to recall what my google password was.


Cujo359 said...

Anna Lemma, I noticed awhile back with Blogger comments software that if you hit the "publish this comment" link underneath the comment you're previewing, it won't publish the comment. Here's an explanation of what I'm talking about. That may what happened to deborahenger's first comment.

Sure enough, I just tried it and it's still a problem.

And yes, I've reported the problem. There's been no response.

deborahenger said...

I've had my civic lessons. What I meant by It's about time the majority spoke up, is, I am always watching the news and news based programs and keeping track of the new laws and the crap thats filtering into the public school system. I talk to people everyday all day long and hear everyone's complaints, and I'm always saying, don't complain to me, do something, write letters to the editor, get on the school boards, write your congressman. But no, most people just want to bitch and go no further with their thoughts. So the left's agenda keeps going forward. I'm just saying I'm happy to hear people start speaking. You can't speak the truth anymore, without being called something, If anyone says anything about Muslims, gays, blacks, "even if what they are saying happens to be true", they get slammed. But if you really notice and watch, you can say ANYTHING about a Christian or Christians and no one says anything, it's totally acceptable, and don't bother arguing the point, it's been studied and proven. All I meant by my commit is that I'm soooo happy to see people finially standing up for themselfs, or basically, just speaking their thoughts, it just so happens to piss people off because what they are saying is not politically correct. If the ad was anti christian, we wouldn't be here.

Liz said...


i'm just going to have to respectfully and completely disagree with that. if the ad were anti-christian, there would MOST CERTAINLY be plenty of christian blogs and websites up in arms about it, christians would be calling the dealership to complain, christians would be boycotting the dealership and perhaps ford itself.

do you honestly think there wouldn't be christians talking about it? maybe they wouldn't be talking about it HERE, since the person who posted this blog isn't a christian, but you can bet your bottom dollar that SOME christian SOMEWHERE would be talking about it. if you're really trying to insinuate otherwise...just wow...

Munday said...

it's pretty easy to just ignore something you don't like.

I work there, I do not believe in any deity's of the sort. You might want to think about the people..the GOOD people who work there, and depend on that job to support their families. You are trying to shut down the idiot that thought it was a good business move to let the ad get out in the first place, but I assure you, the others had nothing to do with it.

By all means call and yell at the person responsible, but trying to get the place shut down because of it? I can understand you want to hit the guy in his wallet, but a lot of families would be in some serious financial trouble if this place were to close =\

Liz said...


i wouldn't worry too much...i think people just want to make a point to the owner that what he did was kind of bone-headed and rude. based on what i've heard about the area, i doubt it will cause much in the way of lost revenue, let alone actually cause the dealership to close down completely.

Anonymous said...

1) 86% of people may believe in (a) God, but even if that number is correct, that includes Mormons, Jews, Muslims, and possibly even Hindus, Native Americans, and other faiths. So to claim they are all Christians is a fallacy.

2) The majority in this country used to think that it was okay to segregate African Americans. The majority used to think it was okay to deny women the vote. The great thing about our Constitution is it prevents the tyranny of the majority. If you want majority rule, then what you are saying is that it was okay to have "separate but equal" in the south. ARE you saying that?

3) No one is bashing Christians. In fact, most Christians I know are horrified at the exclusionary militant Christianity of the guy in the ad. So don't assume that the 86% of believers of which some fraction are Christians, would actually think that this ad is appealing.

Perhaps you might tell your boss that an "everyone is welcome at Kieffe Ford" advert might be a more effective way to get folks all the way out to Mojave to buy a car, rather than "Christians only need apply". How's business out there?

I bet he doesn't like Catholics either.

Marie said...

Ok you got me going again, speaking of nothing you know about, I did serve in the service along witht he rest of my family! And if you were in then you took an oath that stated God in it! You just ignore that fact so why did you have to start on this ad, couldn't just ignore it?

No where in the ad says we won't sell cars to anyone. No where in the ad does it say Ford believes in anything said. Keep in mind Car Dealers are independent from one another.

As for directing the rude callers to the right person, they don't give you a chance, matter of fact one I didn't get a chance to try and she said no and hung up! So sounds like alot of people just want to complain, if that's the case find somewhere else!

deborahenger said...

The 86% in the original piece from Paul Harvey, includes everyone who believes in God. That does mean ALL people who believe in God. The 14% that is left is ALL people who do not believe in God. Period..No one cares what color or what religiion.

Liz said...


right, exactly. that's exactly what lots of people are trying to point out. because the ad says:

Since we all know that 86 out of every 100 of us are Christians...

so right, that 14% doesn't believe in god at all, but according to wikipedia's article on religion in america (, only about 80% claim to be christian, so that leaves about 6% of folks who believe in god, but aren't christian.

we can slice the numbers any way we want, but the ad clearly said "86% of us are christians who believe in god", which simply isn't true.

Anonymous said...

Ford's reply to my polite complaint:

"Thank you for contacting the Ford Motor Company Customer Relationship Center the most recent individual dealer-funded advertisement by Kieffe & Sons Ford.

Ford Motor Company is concerned with the satisfaction of all Ford and Lincoln-Mercury owners and potential customers. We regret the circumstances that have prompted you to contact us.

Ford and Lincoln-Mercury dealerships are independently owned and operated. We are unable to intervene directly on individual dealer-funded advertising campaigns. Such advertisements are unique to that dealership and are developed without Ford Motor Company oversight or funding."

I find it amusing that Ford has "no control" over the use of their trademarked brand name, or what their dealers do with it.

I remember some years ago a local Texaco dealer found Jesus and decided to close his gas station on Sundays. Texaco quickly decided to relieve him of his gas station, and I've been buying my gas there ever since.

FYI, there are two YouTube videos with this ad on it.

deborahenger said...

Folks, this is the Month that we RE-TAKE AMERICA

Get Ready


Keep this going around the globe ... read it and forward every time you receive it. We can't give up on this issue.

Paul Harvey and Prayer

Paul Harvey says:

I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December. I don't agree with Darwin , but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher taught his Theory of Evolution.

Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer before a football game. So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the entire Book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans going home from the game.

But it's a Christian prayer, some will argue.

Yes, and this is the United States of America , a country founded on Christian principles. According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1. So what would you expect -- somebody chanting?

If I went t o a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer.
< /FONT>
If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad , I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer.

If I went to a ping pong match in China , I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha.

And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one bit.

But what about the atheists? Is another argument.

What about them? Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If that's asking too much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand. Call your lawyer!

Unfortunately, one or two will make that call. One or two will tell thousands what they can and cannot do. I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the world's foundations.

Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying.

God, help us. And if that last sentence offends you, well, just sue me.

The silent majority has been silent too long. It's time we tell that one or two who scream loud enough to be heard that the vast majority doesn't care what they want. It is time that the majority rules! It's time we tell them, You don't have to pray; you don't have to say the Pledge of Allegiance; you don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him. That is your right, and we will honor your right; but by golly, you are no longer going to take OUR rights away. We are fighting back, and we WILL WIN!

God bless us one and all ... especially those who denounce Him , God bless America, despite all her faults. She is still the greatest nation of all. God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray and worship God.

Let's make 2008 the year the silent majority is heard and we put God back as the foundation of our families and institutions .. and our military forces come home from all the wars.

Keep looking up.
If you agree with this, please pass it on.
If not delete it.

Anonymous said...

My reply (from above comment) to Ford:"What a shame that you have so little control over your trademarked brand name, and how local dealerships choose to use the name "Ford" in whatever manner they see fit. This ad is now all over the Internet, in blogs and on YouTube, and the reaction has been universally negative. I have also sent tips to CNN and MSNBC, in case they might be interested on a slow news day.

Because of the actions of Kieffe & Sons Ford and Ford's apparent unwillingness to distance themselves from Kieffe & Sons, I now associate "Ford" with anti-Americanism and anti-atheism, and on both counts that means anti-ME. And you know I'm not the only one."

Liz said...


hey, thanks for posting that. i'm glad you have the right to post that here. i'm also glad i have the right to not believe in any of it myself. :)

have a nice day! :)

Liz said...

oh, just for paul harvey's (and maybe your) record: buddhists don't really pray to buddha.

from wiki:

The word "Buddha" is an honorific which translates literally as "Awakened", or more colloquially as "Enlightened".

in case you were ever curious about people who chose beliefs outside your own:

have a nice day! :)

deborahenger said...

There is nothing more AMERICAN then FORD!

Anonymous said...

I find it hilarious that you guys are pissed off at an "intolerant" and "hypocritical" commercial on the radio. does your radio not have volume control? or buttons to change the station?

you're pissed off at his intolerance towards the other 14%, but being hypocrites yourselves you are being intolerant of his advertisement, in which he can say whatever he pleases. he did after all, pay for it.

Liz said...

we're not being intolerant at all. in fact, i myself (along with many other people here) have defended his right to say whatever he wants in his ads. we are just discussing here why we won't patronize his fine business in the future.

have a nice day! :)

deborahenger said...

The only thing I know for sure about Budha is his bones are in his grave. Christ's bones, however, are not, for he is risen.
No disrespect intended.

Liz said...


well, i'm not buddhist, so absolutely no disrespect taken here.

but i know a buddhist saying: "if you see the buddha on the road, kill him."

so i doubt many buddhists would be offended either, hehe.

have a nice day! :)

Anonymous said...

More BS from Ford. In response to my above complaints, Ford now says:

"This specific issue has been addressed by Ford Motor Company personnel with appropriate representatives at Kieffe and Sons Ford in Mojave, California. Our investigation has determined that the advertising was placed in error. Corrective actions have been taken to prevent this from happening again."

The ad was placed in ERROR? You mean they didn't deliberately record the ad and buy radio time to air it? LOL Ford sucks.

Anonymous said...

One point that is being missed here.... that the 14% cannot remove the free speech of the majority, and likewise for vice-versa. The ads point is that the minority cannot speak for the majority and free speech or religious beliefs should not be removed or prevented because a minority disagrees with the message the majority follows.
Of course this is kind of a hypocritical stance relating Ford to Christians since Ford is the biggest supporter of the G&L movement of all the automotive manufacturers out there.

Regardless of my beliefs, I would rather get shafted by a dealership like this than to deal with most of the other stealerships out there.

John said...

Oh cool. Marie doesn't like answering the phone calls. I'm thinking that means calling is a good thing. Ask for Marie. She's the most fun.

Marie said...

Sorry John, I never said I didn't like answer phone calls, I said I wouldn't put up with the rude ones. If you want an ear full go ahead and call, I have no problem giving it back, just don't expect me to just take it!

Anonymous said...

I contacted the Ford World Headquarters and they said the same thing as what they told others here, in addition to this:

"Thank you for contacting the Ford Motor Company Customer Relationship Center to share your insights regarding the Kieffe and Sons Ford's radio advertisement.

bla bla bla...

This information will be shared with the appropriate personnel within Dealer Relations and Field Operations."

So, If anybody pushes this further, contact the "Dealer Relations and Field Operations" and complain directly to them.

Anonymous said...

The front page of the dealer's website now says,

This statement is provided in response to reaction prompted by a radio commercial that Kieffe & Sons Ford recently ran referring to issues of God in our schools and on our money.
“For 15 years, Kieffe and Sons Ford has run ad campaigns that focus on current events. We have chosen to do this rather than presenting typical car sales ads. We do this through an agency that develops the material and sends us a package of commercials to review. From this, we select commercials that we distribute to area radio stations. Frequently we emphasize humor and patriotic themes, as we are located adjacent to two military bases. Public response over these 15 years has been hugely positive, often eliciting calls and visits from appreciative individuals. Regrettably, the commercial that has prompted the current objection to religious sentiment (“Under God”, “In We Trust”) was not closely reviewed by our dealership before it went live. The commercial has been replaced. We apologize to all who were offended. It is Kieffe and Sons’ intention to support America and the freedoms that make this country great.” Rick Kieffe, president

He apologized! That was the right thing to do. i guess he figured that he'd like to sell cars to non-Christians too.

saveau said...

I thought this particular piece of BS had been laid to rest ages ago -

By the way, it's a well known fact that the average human uses approximately 10% of their brain.

False. It is a well-known fact that humans, like all creatures with a nervous system, use ALL of their brains. Well, except for people who make this ridiculous claim.

For more background, here's a link -

Do you think it's possible for GOD to exist in the 90% you don't use?

Quite simply, NO. I do not, since I use all of my brain, all the time, and know exactly what's in there. Such self-knowledge is, as evidenced by comments like the ones quoted herein, in regrettably short supply.

Cujo359 said...

And yet, deborahenger, you whine repeatedly, and at great length, because you can't have a public prayer at an event. You can pray to yourself, as can anyone else for that thirty seconds. Instead, you seem to have to bitch and moan ad nauseum about something you claim to not be offended by if, in another country, you were told no one can do any praying, because that's the custom there.

This whole thing about school prayer started because there were Christians who assumed that because they were allowed to lead prayers, everyone had to pray, and pray as they did. Given your repeated rants, I'm not at all convinced things would be any different now.

Anonymous said...

There is nothing more AMERICAN then FORD!

certainly not the Constitution, right?

what a moron.

Anonymous said...

Folks, this is the Month that we RE-TAKE AMERICA



again, what a moron.

Anonymous said...

Yes, and this is the United States of America , a country founded on Christian principles.

you've already been shown why this is wrong.

It's xians like you that give the US a bad name.

you're too fucking ignorant, and willfully so, to be the future of america.

go sit down and shut up, just like the ad says.

Anna Lemma said...

It's me, Ichthyic; I'm just too lazy to recall what my google password was.

Hi Ichthyic. Nice to see you over here. I usually lurk on Pharyngula rather that posts. Someone usually beats me to a comment.

Anna Lemma said...

I added a post about the apology. Wow, that was really fast.I guess reason won out over faith at the dealership.

Anna Lemma said...

Wow,deborahenger seems to be way,way out there in lala land, or else her imaginary, perfect,Christian Nation, which is carefully "cleansed" of any filthy nonbelievers like us.

Anna Lemma said...

Ok you got me going again, speaking of nothing you know about, I did serve in the service along with the rest of my family! And if you were in then you took an oath that stated God in it! You just ignore that fact so why did you have to start on this ad, couldn't just ignore it?

I was addressing my comment to deborahenger, marie. Why so touchy? I emailed your company weeks ago about how the ad would be found offensive by lots of people. You guys never even bothered to reply to me. Hmmm, I guess someone should have listened to the ad at that point. I also made the point that the ad could have been made to invite everyone,with a special invitation to church people,if that is who you are trying to attract.

Anna Lemma said...

I was also addressing that comment to kiksweetie

Anna Lemma said...

Ok you got me going again, speaking of nothing you know about, I did serve in the service along witht he rest of my family! And if you were in then you took an oath that stated God in it! You just ignore that fact so why did you have to start on this ad, couldn't just ignore it?

Well Marie, I guess you don't seem to know that the "So help me God" is optional. One can choose to not say anything or can say "I so affirm". Look it up. I had no problem with simply leaving it off. The officer swearing me in did not have a problem with it, either when I joined the Air Force or when I earned a regular commission.

I also did not have a problem swearing in someone who request any of the three options. It is the their ceremony and I'm there to make it easier for them, not to shove beliefs or the lack of them on someone.

J-Luv said...

I want to change the view of atheists as so damn nice, because I am really sick of this (typical)relgious bigotry shit. I want them to cram their ridiculous mythology up their butts.

Karen Peralta said...

I absolutely LOVE how deborahenger couldn't say anything back to the arguments against her 10%/90% claim.
Christians not recognising and accepting how wrong they are when proof is supplied to them? There's something I've never seen before.

saveau said...

I absolutely LOVE how deborahenger couldn't say anything back to the arguments against her 10%/90% claim.

Trolls are a weak breed; facts confuse them and make them stumble ;-).

Christians not recognising and accepting how wrong they are when proof is supplied to them? There's something I've never seen before.

And you'll, um, never see it again :-D.

deborahenger said...

Way to go Kieffe and sons! I heard about the TV station in Bakersfield running your ad and taking a pole on who would buy a car from you after hearing the ad and the pole was 88% would buy a car from you! lol lol lol And the lady who said she would drive from Washington DC to buy a car from you. Way to go! By the way, I know why you put the apology in, but the only thing I would apologize for would be the 86% who belive in GOD are everyone who believes in GOD, not just Christians. The 14% can rot. But before they ROT, I want to thank them because their whining was probably the best thing that could happen to Ford in a long time! lol

Liz said...


hey thanks for your great christian attitude! that's the kind of thing that really makes me want to come back to the church.

i'm sure jesus is EXTREMELY proud! :)

have a nice day! :)

deborahenger said...

Have you heard about this case? Great answer from the judge!

In Florida , an atheist became incensed over the preparation of Easter and Passover holidays.. He decided to contact his lawyer about the discrimination inflicted on atheists by the constant celebrations afforded to Christians and Jews with all their holidays while atheists had no holiday to celebrate.

The case was brought before a judge. After listening to the long passionate presentation by the lawyer, the Judge banged his gavel and declared, 'Case dismissed!'

The lawyer immediately stood and objected to the ruling and said, 'Your honor, how can you possibly dismiss this case? The Christians have Christmas, Easter and many other observances. Jews have Passover, Yom Kippur and Hanukkah..yet my client and all other atheists have no such holiday!'

The judge leaned forward in his chair and simply said, 'Obviously your client is too confused to even know about, much less celebrate his own atheists' holiday!'

The lawyer pompously said, 'Your Honor, we are unaware of any such holiday for atheists Just when might that holiday be, your Honor?'

The judge said, 'Well it comes every year on exactly the same date---April 1st! Since our calendar sets April 1st as 'April Fools Day,' consider that Psalm 14:1 states, 'The fool says in his heart, there is no God.' Thus, in my opinion, if your client says there is no God, then by scripture, he is a fool, and April 1st is his holiday! Now have a good day and get out of my courtroom!!

Liz said...


you're cracking me up. surely you know that's not a real case.

keep up the GREAT work! you're such a wonderful, kind, christian woman! i'm sure jesus is proud of you for spreading his love and kindness to us horrible atheists, lol. :)

have a great day! :)

deborahenger said...

Yea, your right. I'm not perfect, just forgiven. I wouldn't want you to go back to the church, remember, it's not about religion. Religion is man-made. It's about a personal relationship with the one who created you. He is gentle, patient and desires to spend time with you. As a Christian, it is ok to become angry, especially when my God is offended.

deborahenger said...

Who cares if it's true or not. It's perfect, and funny.

Liz said...


angry is one thing. telling me that i can rot? so very christian. you've been a wonderful witness and example for everyone here to see. :)

hey deb, have a great's been wonderful talking to you and please take care of yourself. :)

deborahenger said...


Anna Lemma said...

Way to go Kieffe and sons! I heard about the TV station in Bakersfield running your ad and taking a pole on who would buy a car from you after hearing the ad and the pole was 88% would buy a car from you!

So he lost 22% of potential customers. Those 22% customers will not buy from him anymore. Looks like those pesky 14% plus their supports.

Anna Lemma said...

He is gentle, patient and desires to spend time with you.

Unlike his followers seem to be.

As a Christian, it is ok to become angry, especially when my God is offended.

How the hell can you presume to know the mind of an supposedly all powerful being? Talk about arrogance. Or is it a case of my god is an image of myself? Isn't interesting that when Christians bring up the subject of what their god wants, by some coincidence, its always what they personally want as well.

Anna Lemma said...

The lawyer immediately stood and objected to the ruling and said, 'Your honor, how can you possibly dismiss this case? The Christians have Christmas, Easter and many other observances. Jews have Passover, Yom Kippur and Hanukkah..yet my client and all other atheists have no such holiday!'

Actually we have Festivus (for the rest of us). HehHehHeh.

Anonymous said...

He is gentle, patient and desires to spend time with you.

I think you're confusing your dog with a deity.

Anonymous said...

yet my client and all other atheists have no such holiday!'

miss half-a-brain hasn't looked at a calendar evidently.

last I looked, secular hollidays like birthday celebrations outnumbered the religious ones.

Who cares if it's true or not. It's perfect, and funny.

which is good description of your beliefs, evidently.

In which case, I find flying dragons to be more perfect and amusing than your fictions.

who cares if it's true or not, right?


It's so damn funny how you like to shoot yourself in the head over and over again.

Anonymous said...

As a Christian, it is ok to become angry, especially when my God is offended.

oh... OK...

poor woman is obviously nuts.

Joe Blow said...

Grrrr, arr... Angry! Ad, "shut up?? sit down??" Arrrg! Can't... take... abuse... Must mock! Must... demonstrate... superiority of atheistic thought! Arrr! Must invoke Constootuuushun, even though it's all BS and I always interpret it to my own needs anyway. Must demonstrate intolerance for religion as much as they demonstrate intolerance for me. Must mock, must mock. Feel better now... Now I go wield great intelligence elsewhere.

Martin said...

Good Job! :)

Anna Lemma said...

Thanks guys, but this was all due to Karen. Without her recording, none of this response would have happened.

paperexpress said...

Can someone who has a lot more credibility in this matter say something to those who have jumped to many conclusions?

It is widely understood that this ad was both incorrect and blatant. But all of you should understand this ad was created during desperate times without the consent of Kieffe & Sons Ford employees. Unfortunately, this ad was released to the public despite what the employees wanted.

As with everything in life, to take one nasty situation and blame a group of people for it is not only narrow minded, but possibly more ignorant than the information given in this ad.

I would like one customer from Kieffe & Sons Ford to come forward and try to explain a negative experience with Kieffe & Sons Ford where the number one priority is to make sure the customers are taken care of.

Sure K&S Ford is not perfect, everyone knows nothing is. Everything needs improvement, and no group of people should be blamed for one man's action.

Anonymous said...

Guess what everyone who has persecuted Christians for this add...Mr. Kieffe is not even Christian!!! And it was his add!!! That's the problem with people off ALL beliefs, jumping to conclusions without any other evidence besides a radio add. That is completely left open for would 86% of you say this? Ahh, yes "how ignorant!"

I guess none of you know abou advertising. Go read up on it and you will see it was a business tactic. You woul all gasp if you knew Mr. Kieffe doesn't believe. Get over yourselves! Oh, and sorry you wasted your time posting rediculous comments!

Anna Lemma said...

Oh, please leave off the hysterical pearl clutching over the ad. I simply posted the ad and gave my opinion about the inherent hypocrisy in stating how American one is on one hand, and telling others who don't agree with you to sit down and shut up.

Perhaps Keiffe & Sons will at least listen to future ads. They could have avoided all of this by simply paying attention to my email to them some months earlier. Perhaps they are a little wiser now.

Lee said...

I'm for people having the right to believe in God or not. I'm also believe in the right to free speech. Having said all that, this what a lot of fail to realize in this great country of ours. No one should invoke their ideas on another person. It is okay express them but do not push them. For those who like pushing them you had better be prepare to be pushed back at. I think this is the case here. Unbeliever have agenda and want to push it, but do not like being pushed back at. Which is the same for most non-traditional groups. The thing here is FREE SPEECH allow everyone to have an opinion period.

Anonymous said...

these comments need to be censured. I like opinions, but I do not need foul language to express or understand any thought. In a public place as this, the f... word has no place. Neither does a..h... Certainly this topic is not so hot as to need such vehemence as these words infer.

Anna Lemma said...

Anonymous, this is my blog and I allow people to say what they will unless it is threatening or harassing someone. If you don't like it, get your own blog and enable moderation for comments.

Anna Lemma said...

Lee, what part of "he has every right to be a hypocrite, but we also have the right to criticise as well" do you not understand?

Ford Dealerships USA said...

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Renrav said...

I reject any religion's dogma. Christians and Muslims have some nice people - but be careful - the Neo cons and zealots would sooner see you die if you do not agree with them.
I always think of the employees I deal with at a business - not the owner or general manager who dreams this stuff up. I have my cars serviced at Kieffe & Sons because they are honest and do good work. But, the ad detracts from the dealership and is a "sad" commentary on the general AV area where right wing Christian BS abounds. Notice, I did not say fiscal conservative. I leave religious beliefs or a lack thereof out of my business decisions, which includes getting my car serviced or buying a car. Kieffe & Sons should, too.

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Best regards